Chris Hedges on Truthdig writes: “We on the left, those who should be out there fighting for universal health care and total and immediate withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan, sit like lap dogs on the short leashes of our Democratic (read corporate) masters. We yap now and then, but we have forgotten how to snarl and bite. We have been domesticated. And until we punish the two main parties the way big corporations do, by withdrawing support and funding when our issues are ignored, we will remain irrelevant and impotent. I detest Bill O’Reilly, but he is right on one thing—we liberals are a spineless lot.”

If Obama wins–what happens to the fight for single payer, for the environment (he’s poor on the environment), and a new direction in US foreign policy?

So I’m assuming that the counterpart to the angry left is the dumbass right.

Laura I think the questions should be about the lack of accountability that we have witnessed in regard to the many crimes committed by the Bush administration. And why both Republicans and Democrats (they have tried a bit more than the Republicans) are avoiding holding those in the Bush administration ACCOUNTABLE for the Niger Documents, other very serious lies repeated to the American public before the invasion, torture, outing of Valerie Plame, torture, illegal wiretapping program, politicization of the Dept of Justice etc. Why have we not witnessed anyone held accountable after Phase II of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence was released. Why not follow the rule of law where ever it leads.

Why not go after Doug Feith, Addington, Bolton, Cheney etc. Why not follow the law to impeachment if that is where it leads.

This has nothing to do with what party you are in this has to do with ACCOUNTABILITY NOW.

Both parties keep repeating the same theme song “we need to move on”, “time to turn the page”, “move forward”. How in the hell can we move forward when we are wading through well drowning the in the blood of the Iraqi people and American soldiers who have died in this unnecessary and immoral war in Iraq

Liz Holtzman! Who doesn’t love that!

For Liz: Did we have any influence on Bill Clinton?

The fight for single-payer moves to congress, specifically to the Senate. HRC said she would be backing health care reform. If she backs single-payer and delivers it to Obama’s desk, I believe he’ll sign it.

I think of Obama much like FDR or Kennedy — Okay, I believe you, and I’m with you. Now make me do it. What that really means is, “Make it possible for me to do it.”

Biden wants single payer health care….Palin wants single prayer health care and send the health care money to Moosejaw for the NRA to divide up.

I think that McSame needs to nominate a cardboard box for VP. That way it cannot be slandered and we can just assume that he made another correct choice and the box can be opened after the election and we would be suprised by his wise decision then.
It would be the perfect debate partner as you could never trap the box in a mistruth(lie).

lol. made me laugh until i realized that the dumass right gets more from their party than we do. that makes me feel pretty stupid too.

Laura I attended the senior caucus at the Dem convention in Denver. They (I am closing in on the senior mark) were focused on how if elected McCain will continue the efforts of Bush to privatize social security.

I was able to ask Franklin Roosevelts nephew (forgot his name) if what Ron Suskind had shared in his book “The Price of Loyalty” about Former Secretary of the Treasury Paul O’Neil (who was fired by the Bushies when he started digging into Saudi bank records and their relationship to funding some of the 9/11 terrorist) efforts along with Alan Greenspan to take some of the surplus left over after the Clinton administration and feed into the upcoming (some say 20 some say 30 years) shortfalls in Social security for the Boomers. I asked if he thought we would continue to witness the Republicans trying to bankrupt this system so that they could privatize

Roosevelts nephew said “yes” and so much more.

We need to bring up what the Republicans want to do with social security

Biden wants single payer health care

i was unaware that biden had taken any action on this. please tell me more. do you have a bill number? i’d like to take a look. thanks!

But is now the time to push for a more sweeping progressive platform?

Progressives are for solutions that work. Obama’s lack of progressivism pretty much guarantees that his record will be mixed at best. A McCain Presidency OTOH would be catastrophic for the country.

chris hedges (paraphrasing):

eugene debs got a million votes. was he evergoing to be elected? no.

but if we never had eugene debs we would never have had the new deal.

“…the angry Left” will never stop
Bush
President speak?
That is an unconstitutional POTUS venom, so much for P OT US. Even JoeLIE the keynote got that part right. Even at a convention to say you are batteling your country… I mean now we know the crusade does not stop at the shore.

that would be funny to witness the Obama media folk take that statement by Bush “the angry left” and show WWII, Korean, Vietnam, Desert Storm , Iraqi Vets, along with teachers, other seniors, soccer moms etc. To show just who this alleged ‘angry left” looks like. The whole nation.

Would be a great add. “the angry left” seeking ACCOUNTABILITY. My goodness These are the folks that Bush is referring to and they look like you.

Obama’s lack of progressivism pretty much guarantees that his record will be mixed at best.

i think this “best” could happen if there is some mechanism of accountability. the problem i see is that obama has the bloggers, democratic activists and the congress supporting him without reflection or even much connection with reality. this equals absolutely no accountability.

i think mccain is much worse - but there is a chance (yes, very small) of some bit of accountability with congress and with us.

so, while i think obama is better than mccain if i look at the candidates in isolation, it’s not so clear to me if i take into account the context of our political and cultural moment. just don’t know.

Yes, Obama - Biden pan-handle and down to the tip of FLA — Town Hall meetings on Social Security. Not fear politics but some punches on the R platform, brief discussion on how Dems would have acted, and then the plan for the future (with some thought to how if its a good/bad econ). Then Q&A

Perhaps Econ 101 Town Halls with a theme for each one, but consideration of SS in all of them.

After all Obama says Ownership society means your on “your own” and pundits start saying he is making a post-liberal post-civil rights speech. So given that there is even some clarification needed.

i hope there will be a transcript - this is a very good discussion.

Bush says “angry Left” like it’s a bad thing.

NPR - arrest of Amy Goodman is on

Bush took a swipe at the “angry Left,” saying that if the Hanoi Hilton could not break McCain’s resolve, “you can be sure the angry Left never will.”

I’m sure the Angry Left will never break McCain’s resolve (though perhaps we might get him to lose his temper.) However, the goal of the Angry Left is to break the stranglehold on the American people by the Reich Wing so they can take back their country.

chris hedges: we are amusing ourselves to death. [in reference to the so called news]

me: yes. and exhibit number one was the democratic national convention.

She just noted that the SS pulled her RNC credentials off before they locked her up in the wagon.

Bush by using the phrase “Angry Left” seeks to define us as people who hate America. Progressives have to get the message out through any means that what we want is to make America better for the vast majority of Americans.

We have many talking points we can use to make this case but we got to rid ourselves of politicians who, like a Jay Rockafeller or Steny Hoyer, put the corporations first. At the sametime it seems we have to stop ntpicking each other and look to a broader agenda together.

Laura & all:

After listening to the choice morsels of BS from the talking heads covering the GOP election, I predict a campaign theme of Obama = anarchy. How best to address this charge?

Frankly, I think it will be a form of anarchy to bring our country back from the brink of fascism…to a somewhat healthier democracy. I agree that Obama’s record will be mixed, but the Bush term is 100% condemned.

i don’t know the name of the women sitting hedge’s left, but i think she is making a critical error. she is comparing what the candidates are saying instead of what they are doing. candidates can and do say anything - without any evidence of actions in support of the rhetoric, we’ve got to call bullshit.

Last night, in what may be his final major speech, Bush took a swipe at the “angry Left,” saying that if the Hanoi Hilton could not break McCain’s resolve, “you can be sure the angry Left never will.”

But he did “break” while a POW.

hedges is making a very good argument.

whoever is sitting to hedges’ left is arguing against hedges, but she is doing a good job of convincing me that hedges is right - that we have to pressure the dems if we want to have any influence.

90% of the wealth is controlled by the rich well then they can pay for their oil war.
I want the Msdia to explain how McCain is going to pay for the Iraq war he stillwants to keep fighting.

i want obama to explain how he is going to pay for his war surge in afghanistan and an increase in the size of the military.

Speach for yourself lots of folks here have stopped giving to Obama after his FISA vote. I don’t know what Obama can do to get our support back.
If the Democrats do not get some Stones well its no wonder they get no respect.

The Left is angry we are all Lefties now.

Hi Selise. I remember that someone here (perhaps it was you!) quoted FDR when a group came to him with an idea he liked. He said something like “I like this idea, I want to do this idea, now make me have to do it.”

IOW, we have to gain and use some kind of leverage (besides elections) to keep these pols doing the people’s bidding. I think this is the point you are making?

The Dollar going down finally someone is talking about it. A lower Dollar also makes older debt based on a strong dollar worth less money older debt like the war debt.
Why doesn’t the press ask Bush follow up questions. Spanish TV doing a better job reporting the news Now I’m PROUD. Wish I spoke Spanish.

it wasn’t me, but i do that like FDR quote. i’m going to go look for it later….

but yes, that was the argument that hedges was making and it is similar to one that mary made at emptywheel a while back. it’s got me thinking that now might be the best time to start that - especially for those of us who fear a R president. congress will be in the hands of the dems. if they are really worth supporting they ought to be able to put some constraint on mccain if it should come to that. i’d be far less likely to entertain this idea if congress was still in the hands of the Rs (as was the case in 2000).

If you don;t speak Spanish how do you know they are doing such a great job?

Agreed the army should be scaled down that and the jobs KBR and Blackwater are doing that used to be done by the army should be done by the army again.
We can’t afford anymore *cough* freemarket savings.
We should plan to fight wars overseas only as real partners with our allies.
Since we can attack without allies we give future George Bushes a chance to ignore the UN and lie us into war again.
We need to take away that temptation by making the Army to small to attack over seas without help.

You’re missing the most important part of Bush’s speech from last night.
He described McCain’s treatment at the hands of the North Vietnamese
without using the word torture. Ditto with Fred Thompson.
Go read Andrew Sullivan’s short posts on this from this morning. He
states that if Bush were to use the word torture in describing NcCain’s
treatment, he would be implicating himself in war crimes.
Sorry, no links. I’m not good at that yet. The two posts are at 10:22 and 10:32 AM.

What exactly is “universal health care”?

Keep listening to Grit TV they comment on it besides my sister listens and brags that and NPR the BBC she thinks she is better informed than me.

The Governor of Minnesota was on Washington Journal this morning saying that all arrest were necessary and protesters had gotten violent yada yada. That Republican needs to watch the arrest of Amy and her producer. That guy had his head up where the sun does not shine. Totally disconnected from the reality of the situation.

I’m not.

Bring up ACCOUNTABILITY. Indicate they they will get fucking serious if they win the Presidency, Senate and House. Demonstrate that they are serious about this. Repeat that the Republicans have avoided all attempts to hold the Bush regime accountable

New Christy at the Mothership!
Women To McCain: We’re Just Not That Into You

Every American gets healthcare paid for by the government you are not required to buy insurance.
Watch Michael Moore’s film “Sicko” its at Blockbuster still I think or try the libary.
Health Care is better, cheaper, people are living longer and they have lower infant mortality rates in countries like France and England, Holland people are now taller than us.

That’s pretty funny, does your sister speak British?

I think the Obama campaign could take this ‘angry left” image that Bush drew up and run with it. Can’t you see some 80 year old great grandmother talking about the last eight years and accountability and then have a flash of Bush “angry Left” comment. The parents of a dead Iraqi soldier talking about accountability for the lies in the run up to the invasion… flash. Bush’s “angry left” comment.

Valerie Plame talking about how they outed her “the angry left” Bush comment.

Oh yeah the Obama campaign could play this one up big

Polls show on the issues that the majority of the American people are to the Left of the Republicans, the Democrats and the Press.
However thanks to GOP advertising words like Liberal, Feminist, Socialism, Lefty, Secular Humanist, Atheists etc are demonized.
The concepts behind the words are still liked by the majority once they are explained to voters.
The Press never explains the issues however.

Chris Matthews brought this up at MSNBC’s live broadcast in Denver. How the Dems are not bringing up the specifics of the last eight years. The laws that have been broken, outing of Plame, illegal wiretapping, unnecessary war, torture. I know Obama wants to stay on the middles good side but this is ridiculous. Talk about ACCOUNTABILITY, the rule of law. How the Republicans have stood in the way of ACCOUNTABILITY during the last seven years. Stood in the way

She listens to the radio more than I do.

Where does the government get their money to pay for this?
If they want to take it from me and then let about 70% of what they take go to; administration, misuse, fraud, and bribery; then no thank you. I think I can decide better how to spend my health care dollars. And the comment about Michael “Moose” Moore’s anti USA movie “Sicko”; I don’t bother to waste my time watching trash at the movies.

No TV here is there any pictures of Riots going on? Seems like a lot of people were arrested but I am not hearing much on actual crimes committed.

The countries with National Healthcare tax the ultra rich more to pay for it.
Also they regulate the cost as opposed to our system of healthcare where we spend more money per person on healthcare than the countries with National Heathcare do but we do not give everybody healthcare.
Americans like you are deciding to manage their healthcare better by driving to Mexico and Canada to buy the same medicine available here but at cheaper prices.
Where did you get this 70% number on waste America with a private healthcare system that quite often has to produce profits for stockholders spends more money and does not insure everybody.
As my previous comment shows Life span, infant mortality and even Tallness we are falling behind countries with National healthcare.
Watch “Sicko” come back and point out everything wrong in the film if you want:)

what made the biggest impression on me in obama’s speech was when he said a bit about what a disaster bush has been for the country. that just begs the question - if you think bush has done damage to our country, what exactly, if anything, were you doing to contain the damage and constrain him?

as far as i can see the answer to that question is “nothing”

going upstairs

I don’t drive anywhere to get my medicines. Why do the people from Canada come to the USA for surgeries such as knee surgery, replacement surgery and surgery to prevent a condition from getting worse? Because they do not have to wait 8 months. Our healthcare would be very affordable if you got the attorneys out of the cost. Of course most of congress is made up of attorneys. When countries have National Healthcare, the quality of care is less.

Obama really disappointed me during the Bolton nomination and Condi Rice nomination hearings. he just seemed to roll over and continue to run for President. Last fall when he just happened to be out of town the day of the Kyl Lieberman amendment that really infuriated me. He could have made a solid anti unnecessary war stance at that point as Biden and Dodd did (they voted against it0. Hillary made another big mistake and voted for the amendment that was filled to the brim with unsubstantiated claims about Iran. This clip shows Obama’s strategy, put his head down and hope to slide by.

Obama keeps his head down on this one. Very serious
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npzN3dZR6JM

Edwards gives the clearest explanation about this amendment during the debate

But what the hell I am on his bus, it is the only bus that can potentially provide our nation with some accountability. Although I I sure wish he would throw us some bones. Like more focus on discussing issues with Iran. Indicate he is willing to deal with the I/p issue more fairly (I know this is an issue that could take him out of the running) as it did for Carter and partially for Daddy Bush.

Exactly but the Governor of Minnesota was really lying on Washington Journal today. he needs to watch Amy’s Program from yesterday showing the footage of her and her producers arrest.

the footage of her arrest should be played on Washington Journal. Or an add against the Repubs in Minnesota along with the Governor of Minnesota’s words on Washington Journal this morning about how the police in Minneapolis were doing everything in line with the law hogwash
http://www.democracynow.org/shows/2008/9/2

I had the pleasure of being at Invesco. al gore addressed these serious issues more than anyone else. He brought the house down you could feel the stadium shake from the foot stomping. Obama are you listening and watching the people are pissed about the lack of accountability. The Obama team needs to delicately tap into this more

But what the hell I am on his bus

i’m not saying i think it’s clear what to do…. in fact, i think we all just have to figure this one out for ourselves, and i expect there will be many different answers. i guess what i’m trying to say is that while your choice is not mine (at least not today), i support you in doing whatever you think is right.

awesome that you were there.

i listened to the whole thing via c-span and lurked here. and i’m generally not a lurker - if i’m here in real time, i comment. but the disconnect with reality in the comments actually scared me and i just didn’t know what to say.

Do you have links to back up the numbers on lawyers being the reason our healthcare costs so much?
Also if people in other countries are living longer then their healthcare is better. If infant mortality is less then their healthcare is better. On tallness like in Holland well that is more a milk consumption issue.
People from Canada come here because if you try and treat everybody yes there will be a wait and if you got the cash why wait.
That just means they need more doctors which is a problem they can fix.
America would like to have that problem.
Still for whatever reason National Healthcare covers everybody and it costs less money than our system.

Is that rather like Obama backing pro-war Lieberman instead of antiwar Lamont in the CT Dem primary? Who made him do that?

Actually, I think the point Hedges was making is that elections are a necessary time to make politicians accountable. Did you notice, he supports Nader. Look, the Reps respect their base to the extent they know that if it’s not happy, it won’t support them - that’s what Sarah Palin is for. The Dems don’t respect their base, they “know” it will support them even if they trash, as they are, everything it believes - if they did respect it Kucinich would have been Obama’s pick for VP. Biden was (another) slap in the face. How low will we sink, how many times will we bend over and say “Oh please, Mr. Dem., kick me again!”, before we stand up and say “No!”. What Hedges is saying is that until we exact a price for this disrespect we will NOT get anywhere and that the only price we, the little people, have the power to exact is the denial of office by denial of our vote. Note that he made the comment that we should have started this over 10 years ago when it was clear, under Clinton, the Dems were going corporate. Clinton approved NAFTA in ‘93; too many (not I) voted for him in ‘96. You marched in Seattle against the WTO, then too many (not I) voted for free-trader Gore in ‘00. We marched in ‘03 against the war, then too many (not I) voted for pro-war Kerry in ‘04. Do you see the pattern here? If, in ‘96, enough of us had, indeed, sent a real shot across the bow, by ‘00, we would have had a better Dem. candidate, who, taking us seriously, would have made Nader’s run unnecessary by adopting his platform, a truly progressive one, and perhaps would have won, NOT because of Nader’s absence, but because the candidate would have inspired his base to actually get out and vote. And if Dems hadn’t gotten the message by ‘00, we should have given them a bigger and louder, not a smaller and weaker one, in ‘04 - voting 3rd party is much more powerful than just staying home. Hence, Hedges’ point, it’s way past time to do this - we have a lot of catching up to do.

Liz Holtzman’s argument is a perfect example of the absurd lesser evil “strategy” that has, don’tcha know, served us soooo well so far. Here’s a woman who has written a book making an excellent case for impeachment, but who did not support Kucinich, the only candidate who actually moved for it, because she felt he couldn’t win! And now she supports a party for whom impeachment is “off the table”!

Have you noticed that EVERY election we are told, “Well yes, but not THIS time, maybe NEXT time”. Somehow, “next” time never seems to come. Just whose permission do you need to vote for what we all need? I will keep voting for real solutions no matter what “party” proposes them. I invite you to do the same - until enough of us do, we won’t get it. Sorry, folks, but that’s the truth of it.

Thank you, Chris Hedges!

Actually, we already have single payer on a limited scale - Medicare. And you might be interested to know that Medicare’s administrative overhead is about 3% and private insurance companies’ overhead is in the 15-30% range, not to mention the profit margin they expect to make. Sorry to disappoint you, but in this case “private” is not better, nor cheaper.

oops, sorry again, but several surveys show just the opposite - the countries that have a nat’l health care program, overall, the quality of care is better.